Smart Parts going down...

[k0m0d067]

Originally Posted by schmitti

Yeah... I'm sure you all know my opinion on this so I won't go there.

I will say that I feel very sorry for everyone that got dragged down with this sinking ship.. whether they were employees (Sean is a good guy from what I hear and has always been welcome at the MCB bunkhouse since his first visit) or the fanboys that constantly acted as pushers of the name .. and of course the end user who bought into all things ... whether it was equipment that was good on a user level but may have been over hyped through creative writing (see illustration above) or just some kid that wanted something that worked that would get him in running on the ground floor who really couldn't give two shits about what everybody else said.

Either way.. those are the folks I feel sorry for.

Not to see where the next chapter of the Brothers Greed story goes.

E

yes, it sucks for the employees...I've always agreed with that...however, the company itself became something terrible in the world of paintball (back in the beginning was a different story...they were a decent company before they got greedy)...IMO Smart Parts has done more bad than good in the paintball community...thru it's greed, one way or another, has caused alot of other paintball companies to go under, or close their doors either directly, or indirectly...

those employees chose to work for a company with those ethics...and while it's a stretch, would you feel sorry for the employees of a bolivian drug lord, if he got arrested, and jailed, and his business closed? no, probably not...

and with the mourning of the loss of the SP employees' I am not sure I've ever heard the same sentiment with any other paintball manufacturers jobs when things went downhill for them...SP may have been a bigger company, so had more employees, but we all know how they got that way...

and it is very easy for me to say this, since I'm NOT in that situation (so take this with a grain of salt), but I'd rather be unemployed ('specially since Barry O is gonna pay me forever!) than work for an unscrupulous employer like the brothers...

my .02...your mileage may vary

[schmitti]

Dude.. stop stealing my thoughts... I've been working on being a more positive person when in "public"... so that was where my above post came from.

I have many of the same sentiments as you do about the situation though.. I must now be an $P shill

E

[BigEvil]

In an industry where most business practices and business plans are questionable, is it really any surprise that the king ended up on the guillotine?

In hindsight, the whole patent thing, while unscupulous, has not really effected any of us. Is there a shortage of electo markers on the market? How about a shortage of reasonably priced electros? Yeah, well some companies did not want to play ball with SP and did stop making them, but if they were really markers that players wanted these companies would have paid the royalties and still made money. Who here has NOT been able to purchase either an Emag or an AKA electro? Shit, you can still buy both of these brand new.

If anything, guys like us who own those markers owe SP a debt of gratitude. Because of their patent shenanigans, my Xmag which I bought new in 2003 for $1395 from AGD is STILL worth $1000 today.

So Smart Parts markers sucked? Yeah well do doubt they are not in the same league quality-wise and anything AGD/AKA/MacDev/PE. But as a result of their shit-out-of-the-box markers, tons and tons of aftermarket parts were created and sold. Bodies, boards, bolts, triggers, trigger frames - almost every part of their guns could be replaced with better quality aftermarket variants. We all have seen completely SP free Ions. This was big business for some in the industry and im sure many of these people are sad to see them go.

When you think about it, how much different was this than what WGP used to do back in the day? At least a NIB Shocker would work out of the box. Good luck with that if you had a pre97 cocker.

Im at the point where im tired of all of this SP shit. Yeah I know the deal, and im far from a SP fanboy. I also beleive that as a player all of this has had almost ZERO effect on either my ability to play or to buy equipment.

Paintball always seems to attract the worst of the worst. From players to field owners to dealers to the manufacturers. Smart Parts just happened to give us good guys a big target of all of those bad things rolled up into one big giant turd sandwhich. Now that they are gone, Im quite confident someone will pick up right where they left off and we should be careful what we wish for. At least this is the devil that we know.

[fishmishin]

It is now official, Scott has a I HEART SP tattoo on his butt check
J/K Scott, lol.

I see what your saying and it makes sense. Shit towards the end there those cheap Ion XE Pro's were the best selling marker at the store. For what you got for $200 they weren't a bad deal. I still think we will be seeing the Gardners return to paintball somehow, and I'm sure your right as far as someone taking their place. Look at Kee, hell they have gobbled up everything they can so far and there probably isn't any end in sight for them doing the same thing. Just about everything if not everything they put put out is made over seas of cheap ass plastic. Their prices are fairly low because of it, but IMO even if its cheap I still wouldn't want to have to replace something that I have already spent the money on once. Anyway back on topic I'm a hater, still, no BS'ing about it.

[Iktinos]

Originally Posted by BigEvil

In hindsight, the whole patent thing, while unscupulous, has not really effected any of us. Is there a shortage of electo markers on the market? How about a shortage of reasonably priced electros? Yeah, well some companies did not want to play ball with SP and did stop making them, but if they were really markers that players wanted these companies would have paid the royalties and still made money. Who here has NOT been able to purchase either an Emag or an AKA electro? Shit, you can still buy both of these brand new.

I would disagree with you on a few of your points here. First off, not sure if you can still buy a BNIB Emag or AKA electro. I would love to see where you have found that you can actually buy one brand new. Not saying that you can't, just would love to see where someone is selling either, or both, brand new, never used.

Secondly, I believe that plenty of people did, and still do, play with AKA and Emags. You mentioned your post about how you paid $1400 for your Emag, and it still has a value of around $1000. This comes down to people wanting them. If people didn't want them, then you would not be able to have a value of $1000 for something that has not been made for quite a few years now.

And further, because of their BS, both AKA and AGD could have made a few new things that would have pushed the respective envelopes, much like they did back in the day. I know that AKA designers had the next generation Excal, Viking (Which you find these days as the Evil M), regs, and even a spoolie ready to start prototyping, but because of the agreement with AKA, not happening. Now, we may never see what was going to come out of them next. And let's talk about Tom Kaye for a moment. He just came out with his compressor/booster for sub $500 that can fill a 4500 PSI tank in about 24 hours. Imagine if he had not gotten screwed over by SP, what else he would come up with.

Originally Posted by BigEvil

So Smart Parts markers sucked? Yeah well do doubt they are not in the same league quality-wise and anything AGD/AKA/MacDev/PE. But as a result of their shit-out-of-the-box markers, tons and tons of aftermarket parts were created and sold. Bodies, boards, bolts, triggers, trigger frames - almost every part of their guns could be replaced with better quality aftermarket variants. We all have seen completely SP free Ions. This was big business for some in the industry and im sure many of these people are sad to see them go.

But for the price that one paid for a Shocker, back in the day, they sold for $1000+, you should not have had to replace things left and right on them. You take an AGD, AKA, MacDev, or a PE and you honestly don't have to replace things on them to get them to work right. Adjustable feednecks have been standard on many markers for quite some time. It wasn't until the last year that you could buy a Shocker that you got an adjustable feedneck. And boards with different modes? That became standard around 2004 or so? At least with Bob and company. Hell, I bought a Dragun The One when they were brand new (Around 2004?) and I got a board that had semi, ramping (They called it Nitro), and full auto. Sub $500 marker, that had the same performance of an Intimidator, with a board that became a standard.

If I'm paying the money, like $1000, for a marker, then I expect to not have to replace much of anything to get it to work right out of the box. Maybe a battery, but that is it. I don't expect to have to replace the feedneck just so I can use my Halo hopper with no problems, or have to replace the board, just so I can play a local series that allows for unlimited semi, on one weekend, and then play a national series that allows for ramping capped at 15 BPS. Pretty stupid if you ask me. Yet so many people did just that. And they swore up and down about how great the marker was.

[BigEvil]

Tunaman has Emags, AKA still has new vikings and excals.

[BigEvil]

Originally Posted by BigEvil

Tunaman has Emags, AKA still has new vikings and excals.

Part II

So anyway...

Not many people still play with AGD or AKA guns. We are not the norm. If either company was making enough money (or thought they could) maybe they would have gladly paid for the license, absorbed the cost in the final price, and kept churning out guns.

As far as 'pushing the envelope', I think that if either company could have come up with the newest-latest-and-greatest, they would have. One of the good things about patents is that they promote innovation. Can't do something because of a patent? Think of a way around it. Then patent THAT

When all of this SP-patent stuff hit, AGD was already on its way down. They were WAY LATE to the Electro party. Everyone was expecting something spectacular out of them and I think pretty much every one was disapointed when they finally did release an electro it had a stainless steel body and powerfeed. AKA had never been a big player. They were weak at the time and that is why SP went after them. It was only later on that their markers became sought after, and that probably had more to do with Destructive Customs than anything. The Evil-M was supposed to be nothing more than what Bob Long was already doing very well at the time. Judging from AKA's past record, it probably would have been a stack tube box and suffered the same fate as the viking and excal as far a popularity went.

Most guns came lacking upgrades for a reason - so you have to buy them later. That was pretty much SOP for a long time.

[Iktinos]

Originally Posted by BigEvil

Tunaman has Emags, AKA still has new vikings and excals.

AKA does not have any new Vikings or Excals. If you look at their site, they don't have them listed, nor does Dan Voils. As to Tunaman, he can make you a custom Emag, but he does not have any regular Emags listed on the site for sale.

Originally Posted by BigEvil

Part II

So anyway...

Not many people still play with AGD or AKA guns. We are not the norm. If either company was making enough money (or thought they could) maybe they would have gladly paid for the license, absorbed the cost in the final price, and kept churning out guns.

As far as 'pushing the envelope', I think that if either company could have come up with the newest-latest-and-greatest, they would have. One of the good things about patents is that they promote innovation. Can't do something because of a patent? Think of a way around it. Then patent THAT

When all of this SP-patent stuff hit, AGD was already on its way down. They were WAY LATE to the Electro party. Everyone was expecting something spectacular out of them and I think pretty much every one was disapointed when they finally did release an electro it had a stainless steel body and powerfeed. AKA had never been a big player. They were weak at the time and that is why SP went after them. It was only later on that their markers became sought after, and that probably had more to do with Destructive Customs than anything. The Evil-M was supposed to be nothing more than what Bob Long was already doing very well at the time. Judging from AKA's past record, it probably would have been a stack tube box and suffered the same fate as the viking and excal as far a popularity went.

Most guns came lacking upgrades for a reason - so you have to buy them later. That was pretty much SOP for a long time.

You know, you are kind of wrong in a few areas here. AKA did sponsor a few teams that played the big leagues, specifically NURV and another out of Florida that I can't remember off the top of my head. AKA was big out here in the NorthWest, and I can say that I see AKA's turn up everywhere when they are for sale. I personally have bought Vikings from people in California, Virginia, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Illinois, Texas, and Florida, that were all 1st owners or even 2nd owners where the 1st owner was still local to the current owner. They where everywhere. They still are.

Yes, AKA was making a stacked tube Viking. Given that you could not get a case from a Bob Long gun standard until the Protege and Vice came out, and Vikings were getting that back in 2002, I would highly disagree with you that they weren't anything special. The Evil M was already prototyped and being used by people like Fernando of NURV. It's because of the lawsuit, which AKA objected to it on the morality more than anything else, that AKA could not continue to work on it, and put it into production.

You keep mentioning that if these companies were making so much money, they would have simply bought the license and paid the royalties. You even said that it was unscrupulous. Isn't the very fact that it is unscrupulous reason enough to fight the lawsuit? Isn't that reason enough to refuse the license? Isn't that the whole reason that WDP went to the doctor that also had the same patent, bought it, and then fought SP? Sometimes, the evil you know is the worst evil, because it is known, and bigger than the unknown evils around.

I believe that we both have different opinions in this matter, but I keep seeing how thing with AGD, AKA, and ICD could have progressed, but because SP decided to enforce a patent five years after they bought it, they did indeed stifle some of the competition. Remember, AKA, at least, was a small company that put out quite a few markers in their day. MacDev and Alien all started out small as well. Go find how many Bob Long cockers, Millenniums, and even Defiant 1's are out there, and you will see another small company that has gotten bigger and bigger over the years.

As to upgrades, yeah, that was common back in 2002, 2003, and even 2004. But when SP is still making the Shocker in 2007, with a non-adjustable feedneck and a board that shoots semi only, and everyone else is making markers that have adjustable feednecks, boards with different modes of fire, and some of the little upgrades that became standard, then they fell behind on the times, they knew it, and they only just then compensated for it. After their DLX company was released.

[BigEvil]

poof


Had this whole thing written out... then the pc crashed.. maybe later

[Iktinos]

Originally Posted by BigEvil

poof


Had this whole thing written out... then the pc crashed.. maybe later

You know, that just sucks.